No-till vs till comparison

General
21

Probably more than 15% but the input costs are way less

As expected, crop yields decreased in regenerative systems, and by 29%, no less. But while yield has served as the traditional metric of interest for farmers, that decrease in yield does not tell the whole story. The study found that the farms with regenerative practices were 78% more profitable than conventional plots. This increase in profitability was the result of two main factors: input costs and end markets.

It’s frustrating trying to find figures that specify the size of the farms.

The question needs to be, can big business grow a shit load of corn and be more profitable using regenerative farming. The big C corn.

22

Even with a 29% reduction in yield, the reduction in costs from 33% to 12% (of the reduced amount) edges regenerative in front in terms of profit without any other changes. That’s the highest figure I’ve seen for reduction in yield too.

There’s an experiment going on in Scotland to find out more about best practice:

… although they are not exactly going all in with the techniques, so ‘more research needs to be done’. For something so important the government could just pay them what they’d make so they could do the full monty with no financial risk. Small potatoes compared to 'rona/climate etc budgets and we’re supposed to be saving the world immediately here.

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23

Probably varies quite a bit geographically with types of bird diets etc. so yeah there’s likely adjustments and more research can be made. E.g cockatoo populations will eat the grubs which eat crops but they also will eat sunflower seed as a preferred which eventually causes them malnutrition through lack of certain vitamins.

Bird populations generally are key to controlling grub, larvae pests etc. So e.g are sunflower crops really needed?

Or can sunflowers be interspersed with other that the parrots also prefer to eat which could address the vitamin deficiency.

24

With diversity of plant life leading to diversity of birds and insect life and the protection those brings, I’d imagine the chances of entire fields being wiped out by pests can be markedly reduced. I don’t know what eats the most common devastating pests, but there must be something out there.

The occasional year where crops are still devastated by pests could be eliminated, making regenerative even more profitable.

25

Has anyone ever tested this over a long period, and looked at how much more land we’d need to produce the same amount of food if we used less intensive farming methods?

And then there’s the issue of energy prices

How much of that is due to “conspiracies”, and how much is to do with a massively increasing population, and unrealistic expectations that the price of power would always get cheaper?

27

I should also add, the assumption that there are no long term consequences for always using the cheapest source of energy.

28

I think there are downsides to pretty much everything. There rarely exists one perfect solution to any given problem.

That’s why I suggested, as with energy, the choices should be “all of the above.” Find solutions that work for the specific needs and attributes for a given area.

As far as the profit side goes, it’s hard to judge just exactly what that is given how much money the government, at least here in the US, pumps out in the way of subsidies to farmers.

29

Studies have been done into how many harvests we have left on the land we use at the moment using chemical farming. Not as many as you’d think, the figure of 60 has come up.

There wouldn’t be an energy crisis at all without governments deliberately sabotaging supply chains, so the only unrealistic expectation some had was that their governments actually cared about them and the rest of the world. Population isn’t massively increasing either, most countries are below replacement level reproduction so people living longer and the occasional region having increasing populations together with immigration from those regions has masked the upcoming decline.

Most land isn’t farmed at all so less land used for luxury produce and more used for bulky staples combined with meat and we’re not looking at much. Also have a heavy tax on gardens that aren’t used for growing vegetables and every urban area turns into a farm.

30

Grass lawns are kind of ridiculous and actually a throw back to when it was sign of stately wealth to have an expanse of manicured lawn, cut manually with scythes by teams of minions. Funny how it’s still some kind of weird fashion when most people would prefer a front lawn that gave them organic fruit and veg that you didn’t have to mow every couple of weeks in the summer months.

31

Any of you spotted good practical info on regenerative, no-till, food forest, etc. gardening?

32

No, not me. I’m interested in the micro scale stuff too, the best mix of species must be all different for different latitudes and climates though.

33

When I looked into the food forest stuff some years back it all seemed pretty hefty in that aspect. It seems like a great approach for anyone who has the knowledge to put it into play though.

34

Organic produce around here is anywhere from about the same price for some vegetables to over double. Eggs are double or more. [I’ll recant my recently posted trollface at least temporarily]

Unless there’s now fixed pipe spraying systems then fuel and labor costs would at least superficially be reduced for organic, so a lack of natural controls over pests i.e mainly the depletion of predatory bird populations seems to explain much of increased costs i.e reduced yield of organic produce; as most broadacre fruit and vegetable crops get sprayed several times before harvested.

And a significant factor here is consumer conditioning for perfect presentation of the produce, and so lots of stuff gets unnecessarily wasted.

iow a consumer guided demand for uniformly unblemished fruit and veg even though much of the discarded is perfectly edible. Some of that is simply odd size or shape. In supermarkets here now there is sometimes a section called “Odds” or similar where that same quality produce is sold cheaper. [Somewhat tangential to this thread is the wastage due to hail marked produce]

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Some personal anecdotal testimony here is that in the 70’s sunflowers quite suddenly entered the frame as a profitable broadacre crop in the area I worked, where previously a sunflower was pretty much a rarity to be remarked on if spotted e.g growing isolated on the side of the road.

The sulphur-crested cockatoos would descend on these big sunflower crops in flocks of hundreds.

These large flocks were seen daily, some farmers tried using pneumatic sound cannons to scare them off, like big boomy scarecrows, I first saw those when passing by on a schoolbus one morning, these air cannon going off and the birds scattering to the hills, but when I returned that afternoon the birds were roosting on the air cannons and only jumping a few feet in the air when the cannon went off, lol.

But then something happened over a couple of years, the flocks dramatically thinned out and there were all these sick sulphur crested cockatoos walking around with the bulk of their feathers having fallen out. The flocks of hundreds was reduced to maybe half a dozen you would see mainly around sunset. It was thought that some disease had decimated them, but it wasn’t all that obvious to anyone I knew that it was caused by malnutrition caused by their new staple diet of sunflowers, as sunflowers weren’t the only new broadacre crop and there were other confounding factors such as new pesticides inc diluted acid that had entered the picture. Many had speculated that the sunflower oil caused some kind of skin tissue softening that led to moulting.

The upshot of this scenario is the decimated grub- eating/distracted bird population, which led to even more use of harmful chemicals.

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35

I’m looking at the moment for practical info on getting a no-till garden going. The girlfriend wants to do a garden this year, and it’s pretty late to start planning. But I suppose we’ll get something going anyway. If anyone can point to practical info on getting a no-till garden going, it would be much appreciated. If don’t end up feeling confident to get a no-till garden going this year, I’ll just till this first time around and start thinking about it for next year.

36

What I’m gathering, before you go no-till, you need to till the first season. :stuck_out_tongue: The soil is going to be too compacted. Mine definitely is.

37

I was going to ask about that.

I don’t have much to offer when it comes to to til versus no til, but one thing any plant needs is air at the roots.

One thing that was stressed to me during my stint working at golf courses was that healthy plants are all about growing roots. What you see above ground is far less important than what’s going on below ground.

You might consider aerating, either manually or with a machine, then brushing the plugs back in to fill the holes. It’s less destructive to the surface than tilling everything up.

Testing the soil prior to planting is also a good idea so you can apply amendments specific to the condition of the soil with respect to the needs of what you’re growing. Reduces the risk of putting things in the ground that’s not needed.

38

I think I’m just going to till this year. It’s fairly rocky here anyway, and it would be good to get the rocks cleared out for the following years. And I think after that I’ll be able to just broadfork it to keep from disturbing things too much. I will likely mulch with straw.

On amendments, people are all over the place on that stuff. There is a school of thought that most soil has everything it needs to grow a garden, but the nutrients have to be available, which won’t happen if the soil is too compacted. And the soil should not be too sandy so that it dries out too fast. I’m going to do the jar test to see what I have.

On PH and NPK, there are inexpensive diy test kits these days. And I think I’ll give that a go just to know.

39

Hmmm. Apparently the diy test kits give shady results.

Rapitest Soil Test Kit vs Lab Test
Garden Fundamentals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWonFocBHAQ
40

I agree about the nutrients, that’s why I suggested testing to see what you’ve got to start with. Proper Ph is also important for the plants to be able to uptake those nutrients.

Till as deep as you can because you want the water to percolate as deep into the soil as you can get. This forces your roots to run deep in search of that moisture and also prevents problems that occur from standing water close to the surface.

What are you planning on growing?

41

Another suggestion for testing the Ph is use distilled water and avoid touching the soil with your bare hands. Tap water and oil from your skin can introduce acids or alkalinity that’s not present in the soil.